Starting Already!!! A rules question

I was watching a high school scrimmage game this weekend between two teams that I have no affliation with, so I think I'm being impartial.

Here's the sitauation: Team "A" has a runner at third. Next batter for team "A" is walked. She runs towards first. Catcher for team "B" throws the ball to the pitcher. Pitcher catches the ball, turns around, and looks at the runner at third. Pitcher reaches the circle, looks up and sees that the batter/runner has rounded first and heading for second has stopped. The pitcher looks at third, then raises her arm, as if to make a play. The batter/runner then goes to second and play resumed.

My question is, shouldn't the batter/runner have been called out?

I'm know there are people who frequent this board more knowledgeable about the rules then I am, and I don't have my rule book in front of me, but I think the batter/runner should have been called out. I thought the batter/runner once rounding first, had to go to second or back to first immediately after stopping. The batter didn't go until the pitcher raised her arm. Is that the key or did the umpires miss it?

 

As long as she does not stop, the batter can try to score if she is crazy enough...My understanding is that if the pitcher raises her arm, she is considered to be making a play and the runner(s) are free to go...Why did she stop on that play to begin with?

If I were umpiring, and the batter was stopped for more than say a half-second trying to draw a throw, she'd be on her way to the dugout.

 

Sooner Dave is correct. The second part of this situation, the runner on third also has some tings to do/consider.

If the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, the runner on 3rd base does not have to commit to a base until the batter/runner reaches 1st base. So, once the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and the runner reaches 1st base, then the runner on 3rd base has to make a commitment. The rule book does not address how fast a runner has to go, just as long as she is moving.

 

The walked batter can turn at 1st, keep going to 2nd and stop 1/2 way as long as she only stops once. Then she must make her way to 2nd or back to 1st. If the pitcher raises her arm in an attempt to make a play on the batter/runner, then alls fair on running bases at will.
In your situation, 1st and 3rd, we used to have the ball thrown back to the pitcher in the circle as fast as ball 4 was called and let the runner going to second dig her own grave when she stopped 1/2 way and started juking.
Our pitcher knew to make no attempt defensively other than calmly looking back and forth at 1st-2nd and the kid on 3rd.
The minute either one of those runners bit on the looking the other way gig, and had already used up her "1 stop on the base path", 9 times out of 10 the umps called one of the runners out.
Looking back a runner is not an attempt to get her out.

Fishman

 

Another play we did was as soon as ball 4 was called, the ball went quickly back to the circle and then thrown to the 2nd baseman who was in the basepath. If the runner at 3rd broke home, just throw to the plate.
If the batter/runner rounded 1st too aggressive we might would have a chance to get her.

Obviously, game score situations would dictate how aggressive we could be on defense.

And one thing is for sure, the less you have to handle the ball on defense, the better.

Good Luck
Marlin

 

NCAA Rule

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Look-Back Rule (12-21a, 12-21c-4). The look-back rule is in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base, there are one or more runners, and the pitcher has possession of and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The words, “holds the ball in her hand or gloved hand” are removed from the rule. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both her feet are within the circle or on the lines of the circle. [/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica] The intent of the look-back rule is that the pitcher does not have to do anything. Once she has the ball in the circle, runner(s) must advance or return to a base without any action from the pitcher.[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,helvetica] Example: R1 is on first base with one out when the ball is returned to F1 in the pitcher’s circle. Without requesting time, F1 holds her glove and ball between her legs as she adjusts her hair. R1 breaks for second base. Ruling: The ball is dead and R1 is out. F1 is considered to be in possession of the ball in the pitcher’s circle.


There is no "one stop". Once the ball is in the circle, advance or return... Stop without a play being made on you, your out.
[/FONT]

 

The "Look Back" rule anticipates the play you are questioning. The NCAA version of the rule states:

"The "Look Back" rule will be in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball in the eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate ... When the baserunner fails to keep contact with the base she is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, the baserunner will be declared out ...

Note: A base on balls or dropped third strike, on which the runner is entitled to run, is treated the same as a batted ball. The batter-baserunner may continue past first base and is entitled to run towards second base as long as she does not stop at first base ...

Play - With R1 on third, B2 receives ball four and moves towards first base with a walk; meanwhile, R1 leads off third base after delivery to the plate, Catcher returns ball to the pitcher, who has the ball in the eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate. The runner at this moment makes no attempt to move either way.

Ruling - The runner does not have to return to third or immediately advance to the next base until the batter-runner reaches first base. Failure to proceed to the next base or return to her base once the pitcher has the ball in the eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate and the batter-runner reaches first base will result in the base-runner being declared out."​

It is clear to me at least from the NCAA rules that the runner cannot be "looked back" until the walked batter reaches first. As an aside, there is no reason for a pitcher to physically "look back" the runner. The pitcher's possession of the ball within the circle obligates the runner to return to her base or advance immediately whether the pitcher looks at her or not.

Additionally, please note that any act taken by the pitcher which an umpire judges to be a "play" removes the obligation to return to base or advance immediately. If a pitcher makes a fake throw or any other act which the umpire believes is a "play," he does not have to call the runner out for failing to return or advance.

Now your question moves on to a slightly different scenario which is usually referred to as the "continuation play" where the walked batter never stops at first but rather proceeds to second. I think the runner from third must return to third as soon as the batter reaches first if the pitcher has the ball in the circle and isn't making a play. This would be true regardless of whether the batter-runner advances to second unless in the umpire's judgment the pitcher is making a play including a fake throw.

In your scenario, the pitcher gets the ball back from the catcher, looks back the runner to third, then goes into the "pick off play" as the batter-runner slowly proceeds to second. Any throw of the ball out of the pitcher's circle or fake throw makes the ball live again and the runner from third can most certainly advance even if she returned to base once the pitcher had the ball and the batter-runner reached first.

So, let's try to draw a picture.

- Runner leads off third and dances.
- Ball four is called and batter proceeds to first.
- Batter reaches first.
- Runner at third must commit one way or the other.
- If the pitcher faces first base and lifts her hands to throw for the pickoff play, the runner at third who was returning to her base can now change course and run for home or dance. We now have a live ball and there is no obligation to return to base (assuming the umps understand the rule - not always a safe assumption).

What I'm trying to emphasize here is that if the pitcher begins to make a play or seems to be making a play, the rules tell us that look back doesn't apply. So if the batter-runner can induce the pitcher to make a play, the runner on third can continue to "dance." I hope that answers your question.

 

...thats the beauty of the play of not attempting to make a play on the kid rounding 1st. Just look at her, turn around and look at the kid at 1ss-2nd, then calmly turn around and look at the kid at 3rd. If 3rd runner did anything other than go back to 3rd or go home, she's out.

Outwitting 101


Fishneighbor

 

Very good, You have learned well grasshopper.... oops goldfish.

Important fact is that the ump has to recognize it and call it...

 

Question

Ok...I think I get it...with a runner on third the hitter walks and as long as she does not stop will most likely take 2nd base, for fear by the offense the runner at 3rd will go home if a play is tried to be made at 2nd. So in this situation 2nd base is sacrificed by the offense. If walked batter stops anywhere along the way to 2nd, as long as the pitcher has control of the ball AND is inside the pitching circle and does not attempt to make a play (or seem to attempt a play), the batter is OUT. 3rd has to either stay put or try to steal home. Both runners can not fake an attempt (or stop) as to draw a throw from the pitcher or they are out, but a pitcher can fake an attempt to make a play which then gives the runners freedom to move back and forth.