Pitch counts ?

I'm putting this here so we don't get too far off topic on the scores thread. It's always an entertaining thread when discussing pitch counts, so let's discuss it here:

I'd like to start off with a couple of areas mentioned by Dr James Andrews (The Dr of the Stars) when it comes to arm surgeries:

http://www.ammonbaseball.com/baseball/pitchingdangers.html

In his office in Birmingham, Ala., Dr. Andrews hands the parents of new patients a piece of chalk and points to a blackboard in the corner.

''I say, 'Write down when your child started playing his sport, how many teams he's played for, what camps he went to, for how many years, what private instructors he's seen, what championships he won, what his stats were, all that stuff,''' Dr. Andrews said. ''Then I walk out of the room. I come back in and they've filled up the blackboard. They're proud.

''And I say, 'You all know why he's here seeing me?' And I point to the blackboard. That's when the light bulb goes off.''

2nd point

In recent years, there has been an epidemic of elbow injuries in baseball pitchers requiring UCL reconstruction (“Tommy John Surgery”). For example, Dr. James R. Andrews operated on the elbows of 190 baseball pitchers (94 professional, 74 collegiate, 21 high school, and 1 recreational) between 1995 and 1999, and the elbows of 627 baseball pitchers (198 professional, 303 collegiate, 124 high school, and 2 recreational) between 2000 and 2004. Comparing these consecutive five-year periods, there were approximately twice as many elbow surgeries for professional pitchers, and four times as many elbow surgeries for collegiate pitchers. The amount of elbow surgeries for high school baseball pitchers shows the most alarming and drastic increase, as there was six times as many elbow surgeries when comparing the five-year periods. Elbow injuries requiring UCL reconstruction due to baseball pitching are clearly a growing problem at all levels, and particularly at the high school level.

 

Pitch Count

So, should a coach pull a high school pitcher at a certain pitch count, 50, 60 or 70, even if he has a no hitter going? Most coaches that I'm familiar with have a pitch count in mind before the game starts...if they reach the count the player is pulled.

Also, when should a high school pitcher stop playing ball for the year? After high school ball is over, after summer ball or after fall ball? Should they attend camps during the season?

I think most baseball players are playing from Feb to Nov with camps in December and January.........It's obvious that this is too much with the stats from Dr Andrew.....What should a high school pitcher do...when his dream is to play baseball until he's 30, 35 or 40 years old?

 

In regards to pitch counts, everyone has different views on that.

In regards to throwing in the off season, I personally think it's better to throw year round. However, you have to be careful. You have to stretch good every time you throw. The second your arm starts hurting you have to stop. I don't think it's a good idea to "pitch" year round, but long tossing and just playing catch is good to do to keep your arm in shape.

 

I definitely believe pitchers should shut down completely from throwing for at least a month or more at some point during the offseason. Pitchers can still doing stretching, lifting and running during this shut down period. This will allow the pitcher to come back with a fresh live arm.

How many little league pitchers never pitch in high school? How many high school pitchers do you see begin getting hit more later in the year? Folks have got to remember that today's ballplayers started throwing baseballs at much earlier ages. Back in my day, when I started playing, kids were 9-10 yrs old,,,,,,,,, today's players start playing some sort of organized baseball (t-ball, coachpitch, minors) at age 5-6. Over time, these arms will lose their pop if you don't shut it down and allow the arm to rest and rebuild.

As for pitch counts,,,,,,, most definitely need a pitch count, no hitter or not. If you want that kid pitching a long time, someone (coach or dad or kid himself) had better regulate how much he throws. If your only concerned about the no-hitter today, then go for it,,,, but if you want to be around for many more no-hitters down the road, then use some reason.

I watched a local kid throw probably 125-140 pitches over 7 innings just yesterday. Even with today's more specialized offseason conditioning programs, I just believe "early March" is too early for these 3 digit pitch counts. Thats just my 2 cents, I'm no expert but I've always tried to look out for the pitchers who pitched for me just as they were my own sons, because I think thats the way a coach HAS to look at it since your dealing with his future as well as today's ballgame.

 

To point #1, I believe the answer is YES... We limit pitches but vary it with conditions, player conditioning, etc... and will work gradually to increase over the season. The problem with playng with too many teams in the summer, etc... at one time is there's no way an arm can be cared for because kids who are good pitchers pitch for all the teams they play for, it must be monitored.

In the fall, my experience is to try to gradually cut back on the number of pitches thrown as the fall goes on, the reverse of building in the spring. I did that this fall with the showcase team I coached. I was fully aware of the number of pitches each pitcher threw when he was with me and I would discuss their weekday throwing their schools may have been involved in.

My question for all to see here, not intended for any specific person in any way...

What's more important... A NO-NO today, or a CAREER and HEALTH down the road? Secondly, who's the adult/caretaker in the situation of handling a young player?

IMHO...

 

IN addition....

ther are many HS coaches out there that tdo not even keep or know how to keep pitch coutns...There radar is "is your arm alright son?..."can you pitch another inning?" This is a FACT!

 

This subject prompts a recollection involving my son, Robert, and a Charlotte area coach:

When Robert was 14 or 15, he started on the mound for his travel team in the state championship game (AAU or USSSA...Can't recall which.). It was a hotly-contested, low-scoring affair, played against a rival team. With the score 2-1 in our favor, the coach came to me after about 5 or 6 innings and said, "Clayton, Robert's reached his pitch count; and we're going to sit him down from here on. Trust me, he's going to have much bigger games in his future; and we want to do what we can to make sure he throws in them." I told him that I appreciated what he was doing for Robert's sake.

We ended up losing that game 3-2; but, I'm quite certain that that coach never regretted his decision.

Last June, when Robert was pitching in the College World Series, I was mindful of this...and other...days when coaches like that one had acted in his best interest.

One cannot stress enough the value of a professionally-guided conditioning regimen for young pitchers. Thanks to the guidance of trainers like Alan Tyson and his own work ethic, the muscles, tendons, and ligaments have been given a chance of hanging in there sufficiently to enable him to pitch into his early 20's.

However, there's no question that regular attention to the number of pitches thrown is also an important part of the equation. A great deal of scientific analysis has been devoted to the stresses of pitching the last 10-15 years, and it all points to the need to limit both the amount and type of pitches thrown by young pitchers.


By the way, the coach in the story was Coach Hal Bagwell, the head coach at Ardrey Kell High School. Again, "Many thanks, Coach, for helping give him a shot at doing what he loves best for many years."

 

Thats a great story

Thanks Prepster for sharing that story. And that sure does speak for the coach doesn't it. Coaches are human. Sometimes they get caught up in the moment. A kid is having a great game, or the game is tight and he has his best guy on the hill, the player wants the ball and begs to stay in etc etc. I have been guilty of getting caught up in the moment I have to admit that. You have to be more concerned with the health and well being of the player than winning the game. You have to trust that other guys can get the job done and if they dont thats just baseball.

 

Absolutely correct! I've seen it first hand. Innings was their barometer - not pitch count.

 

pitch count

No-hitters can be pitched with as little as 75-80 pitches or less. I think if a pitcher has that type of game going let him finish the job, but a 100 plus count needs serious consideration. I know Madison keeps a good eye on his pitch count but has gone a little high a couple of times. On year round pitching I personally think the arm does need down time to rest for a month or two but the body needs year conditioning. Madison also played limited showcase and travel ball aside from HS and Legion ball. He played little or no fall ball during his HS years and would rest his arm for a couple months before starting to throw for the upcoming season. May not be for everyone but has worked pretty well for him. The key is for a player and coach to work together to find out a pitchers ability and the pitcher has to be mature enough to say I'm done no matter what is at stake.